Doctors are considering calling for an increase in the legal age for buying alcohol to combat an alarming rise in teenage binge drinking.

No one under the age of 21 should be sold alcohol in supermarkets, off-licences and other retail premises, a British Medical Association conference will be told next week.

But the current age restriction of 18 would still apply in pubs.

The proposal is being put in a motion to Staff Grade and Associate Specialist doctors who will meet in London on Wednesday.

If carried, it will be voted on by the BMA's full membership later this month and could be adopted as official policy before the Government is lobbied to change the law.

Dr Sally Winning, a psychiatrist in Aberdeen and chairman of the Scottish Staff and Associate Specialists committee, is spearheading the move.

She said yesterday: "We are not advocating the banning of alcohol up to 21, but by restricting it to a controlled environment we hope to encourage responsible drinking.

"We don't want youngsters drinking on street corners. There is some evidence to suggest that responsible drinking and education at a young age helps to promote healthy drinking habits as people grow older."

Dr Winning said that while 18-year-olds were intellectually very capable, their brains and bodies were still developing physically and the impact of alcohol was greater on them than on a fully mature person.

She said: "We do not want to be deemed heavy handed in removing choice - we want to promote education and healthy ways of using alcohol.

"At 18 you probably haven't learnt your limit on drink and it has to be done in a staged and sensible way."

Evidence suggests that young girls particularly put their health at risk through heavy drinking, which is also associated with unwanted pregnancies.

The BMA in Scotland has already criticised shops and supermarkets for selling cheap alcohol.

Dr Winning added: "Heavily discounted alcohol is directly correlated with binge drinking. The whole system at the moment isn't working. There aren't enough sanctions on people who sell alcohol. We need to start a shift in drinking culture in this country."

Alcohol abuse is estimated to cost the country £20 billion a year through crime and damage to health.

This week the Home Office identified those who drank alcohol under the age of 18 and binge drinkers as those most at risk of causing harm to themselves.

It also singled out binge drinkers between the ages of 18 to 24 as being responsible for the majority of alcohol-related crime and disorder.

A new strategy has been introduced aimed at ensuring existing laws and licensing powers protect young people and tackle irresponsibly managed premises.

The Government hopes to provide more authoritative and accessible guidance about what is safe and sensible where alcohol is concerned.

Parmjit Dhanda, the young people's minister, said: "We want all young people to be healthy, stay safe, enjoy and achieve, make a positive contribution and achieve economic well-being."

Eugh. This better not happen in Canada, too.

Oh fuck it.

Just as I'm about to turn 18, as well.
Typical....

What the fuck. If you restrict it, THEN they will binge drink. It's taboo and kids end up drinking it all in one sitting so they're less likely to be caught. This is instead of realizing you can SAVE IT for later. Ugh.

not like it matters people will find a way around it

it's not like kids don't do it, even though it's illegal. A lot of kids drink because they can't and it's 'rebellious', but when they reach 21 they are less likely to drink just to get piss drunk. So many kids already drink, so if you increase the drinking age, more kids will just binge drink.

did that make sense? hah

My thoughts exactly.

Amy and Patty - Spot on. That's EXACTLY how I feel about it.

How funny. There's a thread on my other boards about lowering the drinking age back to 18 (in the states)

I disagree with the above. I don't think people, regardless of age, binge drink because it's taboo, or forbidden, or because they don't know when they'll have another chance. People binge drink to look cool in front of their friends. Because if you're taken a shot then i'm taking a shot too even if I've had 5 times what you have.

I've watched groups of 25 year olds do this. It's not about a taboo, or availability, it's peer pressure straight up.

But, some people like to rebel. If they are told they can't do it, it might urge them to do it more.
Peer pressure is one reason of course, but not the only reason.

So if it's simply to look cool, or due to peer pressure - what made it 'cool' to binge drink in the first place? I don't think that peer pressure is EVER the sole reason for a problem - it can exacerbate the problem by encouraging more people to drink, but the cool image has to have been caused by something else to start with, surely?

I'm totally with the others here - in Italy, it's not uncommon for children to drink wine with their meal, and the attitude surrounding alcohol is more relaxed in general, and, as a result, binge drinking is less common (I've got this information, just in case you're wondering, from an Italian ex-girlfriend of my dad's). In Britain, binge drinking is much more common, because it's forbidden and so something to rebel against.

Similarly, teenage pregnancies and sexually transmitted are more common in Britain than in any other country. Britain has the highest age at which you are allowed to consent to having sex. Go figure.

Most of my side in this debate centers around awareness. In theory, a 21 year-old should have better decision making capabilities than, say, an 18-year-old. Unless, or course, either is fall-down drunk.

Here's what my perfect world would look like like:

Every drinker must carry a license, like drivers. To earn it, you learn a few things about drinking, like that all alcohol commercials are written to make you believe that alcohol will either make you funny or get laid. And that both happen - intentionally and unintentionally. Or that drinking is the number one cause of teenage fatalities behind the wheel due to lack of seatbelt wearing when drunk.

It gets points, like your license. So, if you are caught doing something fatally stupid like:

Passing out in public
Driving drunk
Starting a bar brawl
drunk dialing (not really, it was just funny to add that in!)

you get points and your drink price goes up for a period of time, after which the the points will disappear if you don't do anything else that's fatally stupid.

**edit: I should learn to proof-read. extra letter.**

this is all well and good in theoery, but i doubt it would ever catch on over here in england

I doubt it would catch on anywhere, but the point is I wish we spent more time trying to educate and empower people and not just regulate them. I learn lessons better when I figure them out for myself -- good or bad.

Wolf, though I do see where you're coming from, I still have to agree with everyone else.

Having grown up in the States and then moved to Canada for college, it was weird to see how perceptions of drinking change. Of course, in both places, there are people who binge drink, drinking until they throw up most every weekend. McGill even has an event called Carnival with games including one where the point is to have everyone on your team drink enough to throw up, then you win. Classy.

Still, it's not so much that kids WON'T drink if the drinking age is lowered. Kids will drink and will still pass out and similar. Still, at least if the drinking age was lowered, they don't have to kide it. I've known people who hestated getting help for someone who was seriously drunk to the point of needing medical attention because they were worried about getting in trouble. At least in bars there are people to tell you that you've had enough (assuming, of course, the bartenders are responsible). It at least gives a chance for kids to realize what they can and can't do in an environment where they can be safe(orr at least safer).

There will always be kids who constantly drink, just as there are adults who constantly drink. It's a personality type and changing the drinking age won't change the fact that people such as this exist. Still, I believe a lower drinking age gives most every other kid the opportunity to learn what's what. Not to mention that it takes far longer to get drunk at a bar than to get drunk in the confines of your own home (at least in my experience).

Maybe I'm just talking out of my ass. All I know is that after being in Canada, I don't drink in the States, even when I'm home for break. It's just not worth the risk of getting in trouble when I know in a couple of weeks (or, earlier in the summer, a couple of months) I can drink legally and comfortably once I'm back in Montreal. It's just not worth the hassle to get alcohol in the States. But then again, I'm not a big drinker. After throwing up from drinking too much, I kind of learned my lesson. I'm more of a sit around with friends and drink wine and play drunken Scrabble kind of girl.

By that logic though we should legalize/unrestrict everything! Cause no one would do heroin if it were legal right? And no one would ever start smoking.

No, i don't buy it. I disagree with the only in a bar thing too. I think if you can drink at a bar and not in your living room that's going to encourage drunk driving.

Actually, I completely believe in legalizing all drugs. Right now, by making illegal drugs, we fuel the black market. I believe in preventive measures like not only providing drug awareness but providing things like safe tips for using drugs and safe practices such as providing clean needles (because, honestly, anti-drug talk will only do so much. It's like teaching abstinence only in schools; kids are going to have sex so it's necessary to give them the means to do it safely).

As for bars, you could be completely right. I just live in a city so drunk driving is really not an issue as we just use public transportation. The most we have to worry about it making sure we get on the right metro (which isn't difficult as there are usually only two directions in which one can go).

It was interesting to live where I did last year. My Floor Fellow’s board was filled with the usual late-night pizza places and information about safe sex, but it also featured a pamphlet of advice from an imaginary character named "Jimmy the Crackhead" who gave out tips like "when taking mushrooms for the first time, make sure to have someone sober there to watch over you." At first I found it funny and a little odd, but seriously, kids do take shrooms, so why not give them advice? Yes, right next to it is where you can go if you need help getting sober, but if they're going to do it, let them do it in a safe environment rather than hiding it.

Not to mention that the first weekend I was out, I went up on Mont Royal for a weekly drum circle called TamTam. The hill was covered with people just relaxing and listening to the drums and many of the members of this gathering on the hill were smoking pot. The police hung out on the bottom of the hill, looking at the wares people were selling by Ave. Park, but they honestly did not care. These people were not revolting. They were not causing mayhem or being rude. They were relaxing and smoking pot. It was honestly not a big deal and these people were not the scum of society. Sure, there were hippies and college students, but there were also just people out for the afternoon, having the weekend off from work. It was nice and relaxing and no one was being negatively affected (I was sober that afternoon and enjoying it just as much as the people who weren't). More than anything else, since I view alcohol as being extremely more dangerous, I don't see why pot hasn't been legalized. But that's a totally different discussion.

Edit: I realize that I sound like a douche; I'm not trying to say that I know more than you. I know that people are negatively affected by drugs, but it's just that I feel that legalization along with promotion of safe practices for those who DO use, increases in drug prevention, and increases in groups that aid those who want to become sober would be so mcuh more effective than just saying that everything is evil and never should be touched (which, again, is akin to saying "sex is bad! Don't do it!") Assume that people will and just take action accordingly.

I see your points. I agree with some, and disagree with others.
Pot yes, heroin no. where do you draw the line.... I dunno.
But i think we can encourage safe practices without legalizing everything. I too have seen pamphlets about how to clean needles. At the time I thought it was silly that they were teaching you how to do something you weren't allowed to do, but now I see it makes perfect sense. I think you can say "Sex is bad don't do it, but here's condoms if you absolutely must"

Do you think we should let an 8 year old buy a pack of cigarettes if he has 5 bucks? Surely not.

I do admit, it's difficult to draw the line. If nothing else, the anti-drug campaign seems about prevention and does little to help those for whom the anti-drug talks did little.

(As a side note, I think cigarettes are so much more dangerous than, say, pot).

Amy, I completely agree with everything you have said. And you are the only other person I have met who feels this way. Education and awareness is the only way to ensure that people are going to stay safe, and that education just isn't available if all you're taught in school is that pot causes schizophrenia and sex is bad, so you should avoid them both. Besides the lack of education on safety measures, creating the black market means that you cannot be certain of what you are taking - cocaine and ecstasy can be mixed with fertilizer and talcum powder to bump up the quantity and make more money - whereas substances could be approved as pure if there were organizations in place to check them. In Holland there is an organization, actually, that will check the drugs you have bought to make sure they are pure, and, having approved them, return them to you. Drugs can be dangerous - but surely this is the safest way of taking them?

I understand the theory behind what you are saying here, but I strongly disagree with legalizing all drugs. I teach violence prevention, and there is a scary and strong link between illegal drug abuse and severe violence. For instance, more than half or criminals convicted of violent crimes test positive for illegal drugs at the time of their arrest. Also, innocent people are 5-6 times more likely to be murdered by someone on drugs than someone simply trying to get illegal drugs. The presence of drugs is in and of itself dangerous, not just the methods. If there's any doubt, I invite anyone to come with me and teach in an inner city school with children whose parents are homeless and addicted to crack or meth. It's horrible, and their children are screwed. Besides, if we legalized the black market on the "good" version of these drugs would still highly prosper, and so would crime. Look at the marijuana debate - know any smokers who don't want legalization b/c it wouldn't be the "good stuff" anyway?

You draw that line because you can die of a heroin overdose on your first hit. Stuff like heroin, crystal meth, cocaine, all of that can seriously fuck you up if you're not careful, and then, even if you are. Does that mean there shouldn't be education? No, maybe you have a good point in saying that we should provide education that goes beyond the standard "don't do drugs!" But I don't see why we should go out there and legalise everything. "People are going to do it anyway" and "we're just fueling the black market" seem like silly reasons to go and legalise something like cocaine. Sure, the market exists with all its implications and complications, and if people really want to do it, they will. But I don't think that's a good reason to legalise it.

I don't know where I stand on the legalisation of marijuana. It's certainly not addictive like so much else out there (including tobacco), but it does have its risks and I think there's certain merit in saying it can act like a "gateway drug." (I'm not saying it's an automatic gateway, that if you do pot, you're automatically going to try everything else, but I think in certain cases, yes, it can be.)

As for drinking, first off, they're never going to lower the drinking age to 18 in the US, not in the near future. Firstly, we're a very Protestant society (whether or not you are Protestant, we are as a society), which means we have very Protestant notions of sex, drugs, and other "sins" and "vices." Secondly, 21-year-olds will give alcohol to their college friends, who are typically 18 and up; 18-year-olds would give alcohol ot their high school friends, who are as young as 13 in some cases. And 13-year-olds, I'm sorry, are not mature enough to be binge drinking with their friends, not in this society. You can argue that teenagers in Europe drink, but what works for France and Italy will not necessarily work here. That's just the way it is.

I used to be vehemently for lowering the drinking age. Now that I'm 21, I'm not sure that's such a good idea after all. I actually think 19 or 20 might be better choices. You can roll your eyes and say, "That's only one year" all you want. That's what I think. It was really nice never having to provide ID while abroad, and it's really annoying to have to do so here. But I was also 20 when I was abroad, not 18.

As for England, I think there are a loooooooooooooot of underlying societal problems that go beyond just the drinking. I have never, ever felt more culture shock that I have in England, and much of it arose when drugs, alcohol, or sex were being discussed. I dunno', I think a lot of things need to change over there.

First paragraph I'm with 100%

As for pot being a gateway drug, I'm inclined to believe that if you're the type that would do cocaine, you'll likely do pot first because it's more available. But that same person offered cocaine before they'd smoked pot, i think would still take the cocaine.

Now the debate here is not to lower the age in the states, but rather to raise it to 21 abroad. (I did mention a discussion on another board about lowering it here.)

I've never really had an opinion about the age. I'm fine with it where it is. i don't think I'm for lowering it either. People of all ages make terrible decisions while drunk, and lord knows I've been one of them. But yes if 18 years old can buy many more 13 year olds will drink. perhaps that the logic by restricting it to a bar. There you couldn't give it to your 13 year old brother. And maybe that would work where there's good public transportation, but in Little Rock Arkansas 18 year olds drunk in a bar are going to result in 18 year olds dead on the I30 bridge.

yes, I know there are 21 year old drunk drivers, and 25 year old drunk drivers and 40 year olds... et al. But I don't think we need to add to that kids with 2 years driving experience at MOST and possibly even less drinking experience. It's a recipe for disaster.

But i think your 1 year is an important one. It's the out of high school year and yeah, I bet a lot fewer really young kids would it from 19 year olds than 18 year olds. But personally i am fine with it where it is.

You know? I'm so not a drinker. I've only really been drunk once. Ever. And I'm 27. You know why? Because when I was a kid, my parents kept the alcohol in a cabinet low to the ground, unlocked. I could've gotten to it at any time. It just wasn't a big deal in my house. My dad told me I could try anything I wanted when I was 14. I did. It was awful. I didn't drink again for another 5 years. Do I like drinking? Yes. Do I ever binge drink? Nope. Never. That one time I got drunk was on 3 chocolate martinis and that's it. Why? Because it's just booze. No big.

But by that same token, Sex was a BIG no-no in my parents' eyes. When did I lose my virginity? At my first opportunity, with a guy I'd been with for less than 6 months. My first real boyfriend, truth be told. Why? Because it was naughty and against the rules and exciting. And can I just shout from the rooftops what a gigantic mistake THAT was? How much would I give to go back and take that crap back?

Make it against the rules? It's exciting and rebellious and everything a kid wants. Then they start younger and don't have the levels of responsibility to take care of themselves. Countries that don't have drinking ages have significantly lower instances of alcoholism, no lie. Even when you're in your 20's, 30's and 40's, that whole "oooh, I'm not supposed to" definitely stays with you.

Edited for TMI, LOL.

I agree Rachel! That's pretty much how I see it.

Agreed. That's what I think I meant...or something like that. o.O



Well, yes, I know that, I was just throwing in the US sort of as a comparison, because as much as you can argue about that, I really don't believe they'll lower the age any time soon.

i know this thread is about drinking, but since everyone is bringing up the drug issue, i will too.

In my health class last year, I remember literally everyday we would have a drug debate about legalizing pot. And it was always everyone in my class for legalizing it vs. my teacher who was against it.

And I know a lot of people who smoke pot, and I know a lot of them would never do anything else. They wouldn't do cocaine or heroin or ecstasy because that stuff will mess you up.

And about 3/4 of the school get drunk every weekend because it's the "cool" thing to do. Because they aren't allowed to do it. I'm the youngest in my family, so I've seen my 3 older siblings all drink before. And my older brothers would sometimes have parties when my parents were away or whatever. And they aren't out of control parties. Just with a couple of their friends and alcohol. And for me it's not that big of a deal, as long as no one is going crazy and no one dries home drunk. But I've had friends who would come over during these parties and all they want to do is get drunk and they're like "woah, look at the beer, i want some." And other times when they have the opportunity to "raid" they're parents cabinets, it's not that big of a deal to me. I think for them it's like "let's have some beer because it's here and we can," but for me, I don't have that much of a desire to. They're not that used to being around alcohol so they want to just drink it all, but for me I guess since I've been around those parties and gatherings that i'm used to it. Therefore, I don't have as much of a desire to drink it, ya know?

I was wondering if I could hear everyone's view on a certain question.

Do you think that parents should let their kids taste alcoholic beverages, or maybe have a glass of wine on special occasions, like say for New Years? And how much/often should they allow?

Absolutely. But how much would obviously depend on their age, and how much someone their size can handle.

Exactly.
Kay knows what she's talking about

Hahaha, Canadians do love their booze.

hahaha too true mixxy! thats one stereotype that most canadians actually stand by...

except for me (i dont drink)

my first reaction to this whole 21+ thing, is "pshh this doenst concern me" but then the more i think about it i guess it does. The whole restricion to drinking means that there will be a restricion on the age of kids that can go to most shows. I personally like it when there are more kids who love to dance then more "adults" who like to stand and nod at shows.

at 21 (ekk me in 2 months) i figure most people ( but not me ) are more likely to be the noding bunch.

also thinking back, if the legal drinking age in Toronto was 21 instead of 19 i would of never been able to go to more than half of the shows ive been to... shit that would of sucked

i hate booze.

..congratulations?

thanks dude

Good question. Yes, I agree with it - if it's done with the right goal in mind. I think the idea is to get children to respect alcohol, not lust after it. I think it's a good idea for them to see their parents having one glass of wine and being able to taste it. I think it's also okay to limit the amount they get to "taste" to an age-appropriate amount and talk about what happens when people drink too much. I think making it a taboo subject fails to teach kids the responsibility they need to learn, and closes the dialogue for some good questions later. In the US, most states permit drinking in this manner - at home, with parents present.

When I was growing up, my parent gave me permission to drink at home, too - when they were home, and with no friends over. I never wanted to be stupid about it, because they trusted me. As long as I lived in their house, I was really smart about it. (Then a total dumb*ss later, but that's another story...)

And DJRose, I can understand the chocolate martini seduction. Those things are just darn tasty.

Really? Wow, this I did not know.

I think I agree with you. My parents allowed me to taste things, and they'd even let me have a glass of wine if I wanted to. In fact they asked me if I wanted it. Apparently they didn't do a bad job, because I've decided I don't want to drink. Ever. I may chage my mind when I'm older, but for now, I don't want to even really taste anything.
My brother does like to have a say a glass of wine when it's a special occasion and such, but he never drinks a lot. He most likely will drink more when he's 21 (which is this year actually), but I think he will be safe about it. Actually, I'm sure he will be.
So, I think I agree with you.

Exactly. This was how it was handled in my house, and thusly I am a responsible adult drinker.



Who are you tellin'? Sprocksie, there is a brilliant post on the Grownups board from that 3 martini night too. I'll find it and bump it for you.

Oh my gosh, I would love to see that.

There's a petition in Missouri now to lower the drinking age to 18, here's the link:missouri18todrink

Frankly. no one on this campaign is nearly as eloquent as we are. The radio interview that they have posted for promotional purposes is terrible.

Summary:

radio interviewer: "Why do you want to lower the drinking age to 18? Please give solid reasons, backed by statistics."

Mike Mikkelson: "Um, 'cause we should."

Ah, good reason. Go have another, dude. Something tells me it won't pass, maybe the laws of grammar.

edit: extra comma

Rose I had quite the opposite experience growing up. My parents were very permissive. i was allowed to drink, have sex, and smoke pot. I did all 3 in abundance. it's only by the grace of God I didn't ruin my life (or end it). I wasn't smart about it at all. I binge drank like crazy, I had unprotected sex with anyone who would have me. My parents put me on the pill the first period I had, so I knew I couldn't get pregnant, and diseases happened to "other people." No one has AIDS in this small town!! I was invincible (oh oh oh). And to this day i'm quite addicted to pot.

[sidebar]
Jedi, it is addictive mentally. I can go without and I don't have any physical symptoms of withdrawl at all. But I think about it, and wish i had it, and smoke the crap in the bottom of my pipe (isn't it glamourous kids??). I don't currently have a dealer in my town and i like it that way because if i have it, and I don't have work or some other responsibility, I'm high, all the time. Like I said, I don't do it before work, and it doesn't interfere with my work or other responsibilities, but I cannot say that I'm not addicted. I quit for 3 months after college to find a job, but in the past 11 years that's by far the longest I've gone without it.
[/sidebar]

I think it's amazing I turned out as good as I did. I did fall quite short of my dreams, but where I'm at, I would consider myself sucessful.

My sister on the other hand, is more like you. She has the same freedoms I had. She's tried alcohol and pot, but her friends were worried about her so she stopped. As far as I know, she has yet to have sex. I think she would tell me if she had, she's not going to be in trouble for it, so there's no need to lie.

So I guess my point is kids drink for different reasons. Some do it cause it's taboo, I did it because that's what the older kids were doing and I wanted to fit in. I also did it to get drunk. some don't do it at all.


As for parents letting their teens taste alcohol, I don't really have a problem with as long as they're teaching good habits along with it. My parents gave me unrestricted access to all of it and that was just stupid. A father and son having a beer on a fishing trip, no problem. One glass of champagne on New Years Eve, big deal. But when your dad buys the whiskey for the high school party, no! But I think with that drink they need to try to impress upon the teen that one drink is fine, but 6 are dangerous.

I also think every parent should tell their teen if you're ever drunk and need a safe ride home call me and you won't be in trouble. I did have that, but of course I wouldn't have been in trouble for drinking anyway. To this day I still overdo it occasionally and regret it, but by God I know damn good and well not to get behind the wheel!!

Bumped for you then. Thread's called "I miss Andy Duncan". Page 2. ::sigh::

And Wolf, well, I'm not ignoring your post, I just have no response for it. I wish you the best of luck in overcoming your addiction.

I reckon pregnancy will do it. that'll be a while though.

I do think that parents should tell their kid to call them, but I also think that they should have some sort of punishment, or else they might not learn.

But if they do, they might not call.

Then they could just have a good talk with them. Something to get the message across.

Learn what? They could just be a little tipsy but still unable to drive, and most teenagers are going to get tipsy no matter what. It's better they go home with their parents.

I hate to be mean, but as someone who didn't really start going to concerts until after they turned 18, I have very, very little sympathy for teenagers who can't get into shows. I really do. I was under 21 for a while there, and yes, there were several concerts I couldn't get into. (Had I been in the US for it, there was a good chance I wouldn't have been able to get into the Scamper/OK Go show in Boston last November, because that was 21+ - and six days before my birthday.) You know what I did? I dealt with it. You win some, you lose some.

And really, the last show I went to was the Siren Music Fest at Coney Island. It was all ages, free, and the crowd was a huge mix of adults, kids my age, and teens. And you know what? Nobody was dancing. Not a goddamned person. We were watching We Are Scientists, for chrissake! And everyone, including those younger kids, was just standing there, arms folded, doing nothing. I think it's really unfair to say that only kids like to dance at shows.

Besides, everyone reacts to the music differently. Maybe that's just how some adults get into the music or what they're comfortable with. It bothers me more to see these teenage hipsters who don't dance or don't even look happy, completely on purpose, than an adult who's enjoying themselves but grew out of the "dancing like a nutter" phase.

I agree with your point, here: safety is priority. If I had a teenager who called me and was drunk, I would pick them up every time, and let them know they did the right thing in calling me. The first time: talk with me. It's a good learning experience. We always had a code word growing up that was like a one-time get out of jail free card - if I was into something over my head, I could use that word and mom and dad would help without my getting in trouble, but the chance expired after that. So, no coming home drunk twice. I used it a couple of times, and it was pretty vital.

If my kid called me a second time: talk, and some trouble - maybe a grounding or some volunteer work. There's a boundary there that's being crossed, and it's about trust, not even drinking. Doing self-destructive things is just that - self destructive, and curiosity only works as an excuse the first time. I just couldn't see myself letting that go, or I think trust would suffer on both sides: My trust in my child's judgement, and their trust in mine.

It does suck that some shows are 21+. there's no debate there. But anticipation never hurt anyone. either.

Yes. Completely. I do agree with Wolf though in terms of the limits; when it's done to show how to drink responsibly, it's great. When it's done to impress their kids, it can be dangerous. I first got tipsy around my family (I am classy). I've always felt I could talk to my parents, my mom especially, about what's going on. Maybe that's what's most important. Though we argue, I feel very close to my parents. I was able to tell my mom that I got sick on whisky (though I left out that it landed me in a webcomic) and her response was, "whisky does that to me too!"

(For that reason, I listen to her opinions, especially about drugs and alcohol and often weigh them heighly in terms of how I feel about certain things.)

It's a tough discussion since it is such a different experience for each person.

Which webcomic?

It all comes down to responsible parenting. Some parents take an active role in their kids' lives, some don't take enough of a role, and others go way overboard. No one's perfect. The government just needs to find a proper niche in all of that, which really is not an easy job. I don't envy them that.